#35 Versatile Organizations with Jurgen Appelo - Ministry of Transformation

Jurgen and David talk about Jurgen’s newest model for organizational structure: what it is about, how he arrived at it and they also discuss the differences and similarities to currently popular models, like SAFe and the Spotify model. They also talk about their doubts about Holacracy and matrix organizational models, about the advantages and shortcomings of current ideas and how Jurgen has addressed them with the unFIX model. Jurgen also explains why line management doesn’t belong in teams if you really want to be versatile and that each organization must start where it is. An episode filled with useful and practical information for understanding and developing structures in organizations.


02:00 A short history of Management 3.0 and how it was missing organizational structure
03:00 Research and books that led to the crystallization of the ideas of the unFIX model
03:36 Thoughts on the Spotify Model
04:26 Taking the next steps for a new picture for organizations
06:07 SAFe is for large enterprises, but most people don’t work for large enterprises.
07:00 The four types of teams
08:37 No line management on any of the team types
10:07 Crews and Forums - and still no line management
11:41 The Chiefs - the management team
12:35 Differences to how SAFe deals with hierarchy and management
15:50 Crews have captains, who are responsible for the journey
17:00 Starting where you are and taking small steps
18:55 There is work to be done and there is a need for viable options


Jurgen’s blog article that started this coffee break:

Management 3.0, the framework: https://management30.com/

Jurgen’s Books:
How to Change the World: Change Management 3.0 https://amzn.to/3EPpFUs

Management 3.0: Leading Agile Developers, Developing Agile Leaders https://amzn.to/3IHEDhv
Managing for Happiness: Games, Tools & Practices to Motivate Any Team https://amzn.to/3GBepLO
Startup, Scaleup, Screwup: 42 Tools to Accelerate Lean and Agile Business Growth https://amzn.to/3pPTSfG

“Ministry of Transformation”, the Transformation Consultants of the Ministry Group: https://transformation.ministry.de

“New Work Future”, Germany’s probably oldest conference for the future of work and the creating organisation (in German):
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